ken800

Jerrod from HALO has a brand new one he'll sell me cheap. If he is anywhere near me, I'll pick it up from him. If not, I'll PM tomorrow and we'll hook up. Testing on weekends is easy because I can pick a route and do the same thing over and over for consistency of testing...

thanks for the offer!

Ken

2002GreyHD150

Ken just to clarify... when you say JL Ram air.. you are refering to an open cone filter with the inverted cone in the end... & a little rubber connetor that funnels inner fender air into the end of the filter correct?

The JL kit does not have a sealing sheild or a fan wash sheild of any type correct?

__________________
--My momma always said, opinions are just like Butt-holes everyone's entitled to one, but not always entitled to show it.

ken800

The full JL ram air kit has a black metal box as a shield and a hose that runs down to the front of the vehicle. It consists of a box, cover, tubing, duct, clamps, and screws...

here is the pic:

http://www.johnnylightningperf.com/n...sp?intProdID=2

2002GreyHD150

Ken LOL you beat me back to the post... LOL

I was searching for the 2 links..

ok... where do you have the ram air "duct" placed?

I am just trying to visualize the set up snow versus when you do the stock airbox w/K&N...

Looking at the pic it does not seem to seal to the hood... but is reasonablyprotected from fan wash...

So the outer filter could be pulling some hotter air in... but it si being offset by the ram air...

I would e really curious to hear where your duct is placed...

also where did you "plug" the ram air in your recent test?
Thanks for the great thread!

__________________
--My momma always said, opinions are just like Butt-holes everyone's entitled to one, but not always entitled to show it.

ken800

the ram air duct is just below the fascia on the drivers side of the truck. It hangs down enough that it scrapes curbs when I park. I tucked it in as tight as I could and still "scoop" air. I then cut the 1/2" or so flange off of the lower edge of the duct so it wouldn't scrape as much.

when I plugged it, I stuffed a hand towel in at the duct at the fascia. It was easy to jump out and grab the towel that way.

I'd say yes, they box protects from "direct" fan wash, but once all of the underhood stuff heats up (notice that EVERYTHING does) to where it is too hot to touch, fan wash or not, you are going to get hot air in that intake if you are sitting still or moving less than 30MPH or so.

I will try to get the stock airbox with NO MODS to it other than a K&N installed on it tomorrow and I'll do the neighborhood/telge road/freeway test again and see what I get... Then I'll cut a 3" hole and attach a piece of hose and check again. As long as the hose ends somewhere out of the engine area, it shouldn't make much, if any, difference.

ken800

ran another test today. temps were around 95 degrees -- jumped between 94 and 97 on my a/c readout...

I was in the drivethrough, engine got really hot. Intake got really hot. I added the secondary air intake temp (after the intercooler?) to my testing...

Here is what I got:

Peak while sitting in drive through:
160 intake 150 secondary intake +65/+55 over ambient

lowest temp 1st 40mph run (1 mile)
124 intake 136 secondary intake +29/+41 over ambient

lowest temp on second 40mph run (another mile)
117 intake 131 secondary intake +22/+36 over ambient

lowest temp on 60 mph run (about 2 miles or so)
102 intake 129 secondary intake +7/+34 over ambient

I did a quick WOT through 1-2 shift and part into second...
intake/secondary peaked at 127/146 right before I let off the throttle. Temps grow quick under boost.

A couple of interesting notes:

first, I was on the freeway long enough to get the primary intake temp close to ambient (within 7 degrees or so). The secondary intake had a floor around 129-130. Maybe it would have come down a couple more degrees, but it was bouncing around quite a bit at that point, so I'm sure I hit a floor in the temp.

With the intake temp at 30 degrees higher than the lowest I measure on the freeway (+37 over ambient), secondary was only around 135 degrees which is close to lowest measured point...

That would seem to indicate a a fairly constant secondary intake temp while not under boost. That is, of course, while moving. At idle, the secondary got quite hot. Under boost, the temps jumped 16 degrees on a short WOT blast. I wonder what would happen if I stayed in it longer and did a couple of back to back WOT blasts to heat up the intercooler fluid....

Last note: this was still my JL ram air box and I did not plug the ram air opening.

HOGWYLD

Any more updates on the stock and mod/stock in comparison ?

ken800

waiting on screws and a gasket to install the stock box...

ken800

update...

full stock airbox, k&n filter, rubber boot in place, no mods to stock box whatsoever.

Tested in the morning. 88 degree ambient, engine not all the way warmed up. Intake stayed within 3 degrees for about 10 miles including a brief stop at two stoplights.

At 12 mintues, the intake temp started ro rise and got to about 10 degrees over ambient and would not go back down. As I stopped and parked at work, the temps were slowly rising in the intake... I shut the truck off with the intake temp at 122 degrees since I had been there a few minutes and didn't want to wait any longer. The second air charge temp for the morning run stayed under 100 for quite a while and then began to rise fairly quickly. the second air temp stayed at 121-122 until I parked for the morning and then it began to rise quickly. The intake temp/second air peaked at 126/140 while idling in the parking lot. I shut it off at that point, but temps were still rising very, very slowly.

Just after lunch, I did the same routine with ambient now at 91 degrees. Drive through window and temps slowly creeped up. The line was long -- I spent some time there. Peaked at 158/147 sitting at drive through. I took off down the feeder at approx 40 mph for about a mile, then stopped and sat through three red lights. The low on the short 40mph run was 135/137. I peaked at 158/149 at the light. I then jumped on the freeway for a 10ish minute drive home. I set the cruise at 62 which is where I was at the last test. I ran for several miles obviusly, and the intake temp/second air charge fell to a low of 102/127 on the long freeway run.

Ok, so here are my conclusions/observations so far.

It takes much longer for the stock airbox to heat up when idling or going slow. It therefore also takes a long time to cool it down. The intake temp would not go below 11 degrees over ambient even going down the freeway so many miles. The second air charge temp was the same +- 1 degree as with the JL box.

I'll modify the stock airbox with a hose feed and see if it makes any difference. I think the only thing that might add is that the box cools down a little faster and maybe gets closer to ambient.

What I would have to say at this point is that the ram air box is working as advertised. On a cold or cool motor, the stock airbox may be better because it maintains ambient intake temps longer than the JL box. Once the engine bay is FULLY heat soaked, all bets are off and the ram air setup (not a true ram air) seems to bring the temps close to ambient more quickly than the stock box.

All in all it's pretty much a toss up at this point in the testing. When considering the most important aspect, second air charge temp, there is really no significant difference. In this case I would tend to lean toward the argument that more air is better and, within reason, it doesn't matter whether it is hot underhood air or cooler outside air. Once moving, the hot underhood air isn't so hot any more -- that reality is improved dramatically with the addtion of the ram air feed.

Does anyone want me to test the stock airbox modded to see what happens with temps?

At this point I do stand behind my statements that you are fine if you slap a K&N in and mod the stock airbox. If you have an open element intake, you are pretty much OK as far as my testing can tell so far.

Ken

Directfreak

Yes please, I've been following your thread like an axious kid with 10 dollars at a Candy story..not sure of what to buy.

__________________
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2002 Supercharged Harley Davidson Supercrew DSG - Fast Daily Driver.
1985 Turbocharged RX-7 GSL-SE "Cosmo" 13B-RE - Much, Much, Faster Weekend Racer.
2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GT Convertible bone stock - Weekend Cruiser.
1998 Sea-Doo GTX-Limited too many mods!

N2TRUX

Lots of good reading Ken. We appreciate your research.
Yes, I would like to see a modded stock box run. I have no plans to add a ram air tube, so I am curious as to how much I have ganied with my box mod.
I think I need to open both sides of the box, rather than just one like it is now...

ken800

sorry, guys... been out of town. I've got to find the parts to mod the box and I'll do it asap.

Hopefully in the next couple of days.

I realize that the full story is not yet there, but I don't think modding the stock airbox (no ram air here, I'm afraid) is going to make much of a temp difference. It might, who knows...

Assuming it doesn't, I'll go back to my JL airbox because I spent the money on it and I may as well use it.

I would look at the intercooler heat exchanger thread... ECM saw dramtic secondary air temp drops by adding a fan to his intercooler heat exchanger. Modding the stock airbox and then
buying an intercooler fan might be a better use of money...


Ken

Ayrton

You are back I see, but me no hear from you...

I hope the trip went smoothly.

ken800

I'll try to call you today... sorry I couldn't hook up while there. We made good time and drove straight through atlanta. Coming back, traffic was bad and I almost missed my flight, so I was running at the airport and did not have time to call.

Since I borrowed a rubber boot from a local guy, I'm good for the moment... Don't throw that one away

Thanks!

Ken

ken800

Yet another update....

I went out today to test the "modded" airbox with ambients at 91-92 degrees. The only variable I added was a 160 degree thermostat. Intake temps on the long 60mph stretch were 102 best on Intake and 126 best on the second air charge temp. That represents a 4-5 degree cooler second air charge temp. Water temps went as high as 185, which is within 9 degrees of the stock thermostat, but went as low as 176 while cruising which is about 13-14 degrees cooler than stock while cruising.

I put the JL box on and went out about an hour later. It was 92-93 degrees... Best I got was 97 degrees intake with 126-127 being the range the second air charge temp range.

So.... To make this very long thread very short, the airbox doesn't seem to matter much. Underhood air is hot and it does seem it can affect the second air charge, but by such a small amount as to be irrelevant. Throttle response seems to be a little better with the modded airbox and the JL airbox with the JL being the best and the stock box being the worst.

One other interesting note... The modded airbox yielded a max of 4.7 on the MAF where the JL box yielded a max of 4.8. The numbers on the maf were a little higher and a little more consistent across the board than on the mod airbox. That just shows what is obvious. A big open filter breathes better than the stock box -- even when modified and a k&n added.

For those considering an airbox, I would say either a JL ram air or a PSP fast air. Either one would be pretty good. I would still say to save your money and cut a big hole in the bottom of your stock box along with adding a K&N.

Next up, working on cooling the intake charge...

Ken