Upgrade path

[HDBuckeye]

Trying to put together a plan to spend roughly around $500 per phase of upgrade.

Been doing all of the required searches and through all of them have come up with the following:

1: Replace factory front speakers with a 5.25" component set (MB Quart QSC series as an example) $400+sound deadening

2: Replace factory rears with 5x7". Add on a 4 channel amp to drive the front speakers: $500+sound deadening

3: Add on 6.5" midbass (MB Quart Q series add on woofer as example), Q-logic forms moving 5.25 and tweeter into the them and adding the 6.5 into the door. $400+sound deadening for floor

4: Add on a 250/1 and a JL Stealbox to round out the system. $800+sound deadening for rear wall.

5: Upgrade stock HU with whatever latest technology is... Right now was looking at the Kenwood 8017 in dash DVD.

Of course I have a few questions:

1) Can you run a 3-way component set such as a JL XR653 in 2way? This is mainly to avoid the expense of buying an amp at the same time.

2) Can I easily damage the components by using only the stock HU to power them?

I found a JL and BA dealer (tweeter) so I'll have a go at those and check a shop that is nearby that store.

Appreciate the help and the amount of searchable info is amazing.

[2002GreyHD150]

Yes all of the mainstream 3-way sets can be run through the provided passive crossovers & they will run ok from the OEM HU... they will break up very quickly, but you won't blow them AS LONG AS YOU LISTEN FOR DISTORTION just like ping/detonation... carefull use you will be fine until you upgrade.

Your steps above are very logical & well planned.. the Alpine/JL/MB Quart "add kits" where you add a 6.5" midbass are great ways to spread your cash out to afford the upgrades with no loss in performance.

Very well chosen path either way...

Rob w

[HDBuckeye]

Thanks man...

Visited the local listening booth and tried out the JL XR650CS vs Focal's vs BA vs Polks...

Also got to hear them through a 50x4 alpine HU and through the 300x4 JL amp. I now know the huge difference when using the amp as the components became distorted around the 20-25 mark in volume (not sure if that means anything)

I had heard that BA's were high, but man it almost hurt my ears. I was also told that most of the stores around have dropped MB Quarts

The dissapointing thing was the lack of any kind of bass response from the 6.5". I am attributing this to the soundboard that the speakers are mounted in and potentially some crossover circuitry forcing all <100 Hz frequencies to their various subs. The components themselves I guess could be setup differently...

I have a question about the upgrade path I've chosen.. If I go with the 3way system (XR653-CSi) which contains 1", 4" and 6.5". Will the crossover eliminate the range of frequencies that would go to the 4" if I only mounted the 1" and the 6.5"?

... Calling a store this week to inquire about mb quarts....

By the way, they wanted $80 for the install of the 6.5 component set and $20 for the mounting plate... I about died.

[2002GreyHD150]

more late tonihgt.... you are thinking a little too much...

ok...

1.) the midbass problem is entirely the sound board... Rule #1... listen in a VEHICLE!!! if at all possible......

2.) BA's being ":harsh" or bright... THAT is a first.....LOL.. MB quart bright/harsh... yes.. BA??? interesting.. SOUND BOARDS suck....

3.) your observations of the hu versus amp set up... very real. good that you made that comparision

4.) NO you cannot hook up a 1-4-6.5 without the 4" & have the 6.5 & 1 pick up the slack. The crossover is the traffic cop of the music chain. it cannot ignore the cycle of the process. so to speak... will have a huge hole in the midrange.

5.) typical speaker install labor is $25-30per pair.A component set is technically (2) pair+ a crossover.That adds about 15-30 minutes. $20 for the platefor a 6.5" mid is pretty reasonable, especially if the plate is made of wood, 20-45 minutes to cut them free hand 5-7minutesto cut them on a router with a jig.. Metra & others make ABS/plastic plates that retail for about $17-$20 a pair. Problems... Woods sucks up moisture/water .5-1 year they need replaced & to get any real rigidity, youahve to use 3/4" wood.. & there isn't much room between the door & the door panel. IF you felt that the 6.5" were lacking Midbass in a sound board.. putthem in your door without sound deadening & an ABS mounting plate that flexes & jumps with every midbass note... Aluminum is far better.. period.. Yes its self serving, since I make & sell them.. but you can buy them from whom-ever you want.. the bottom line is plastic is for basic 6.5"coaz installs& wood is a temporary fix.

I didn't notice where do you live?

Rob W

[hemiuk]

The only Buckeye I know of is in AZ ?

[HDBuckeye]

hehe sry RI, need to fix the sig since I just joined.

I noticed that most people used mdf or plywood. Except you, who recommends 3/16" aluminum plates. Instead of ABS plastic, what about a lexan plate (in the 1/2" thick range) or pressure treated wood?

Thanks for the advice about the 6-4-1 setup.

I finally looked at the install guide for the add-on woofers from MBQ and it looks as if the crossover is actually a 3 way in the 2 way component set, unlike the JL sets. Getting a JL component set and then trying to add on a midbass would require a purchase of another crossover?

[2002GreyHD150]

JL was the first to offer a 6.5" midbass "add on kit" they no longer offer it. So from JL its the 653-cs is a set that is run as delivered no options...If a dealer has them they are AT LEAST 3 years old.. keep this in mind for pricing.

MB Quart's program offers 2 "add a 6.5 woofer kits. one with a good ("C" series) & one with a better crossover ("D" series). they should match the crossover level of the mid-tweeter. You comment about the crossove being "3-way" is actually incorrect.. the Add-kits are Band-pass crossovers that turn the 2-way set into a 3-way set. What happens is that the add-kit crossover is a 2nd high/low crossover so you run from your source to the add-kit crossover FIRST... then out of the add-kit crossover into the 2-way crossover. its the same as 653 crossover from BA or JL, just in 2 boxes.

Boston no longer offers the Pro653 3-way set. Nor do they offer the Pro 6.5 "add kit" So if a dealer has these they are AT LEAST 2 years old.. keep that in mind for final purchase price.

Alpine in their SPX series offers the 4+1, 5.,25+1, & a 6.5+1 component sets & then the SPX-17M midbass "add kit"

if you found the Boston to bright, the quarts are goig to make your ears bleed unless you have ears grown in an alternate dimension... which I have encountered. If the Quarts are too harsh the alpines are an amazing departure... YOU MUST listen to the Alpine's in a CAR/TRUCK... the tweeter is pehnominal in a vehicle... it sounds flat/mutedon a sound board... partly beciause of the crossover & also that the tweeter is designed to be off axis on purpose.

Speaker plates 101:

1.) in order to get any strength/rigidity, you need 1/2-3/4" material. With any decent speaker mounted in the front door of a F150, you ahve MAYBE 3/4" total gap betweent he face of the OEM speaker & the back of the door panel. So 3/4" -1/2" of plate thickness = 1/4" thickness net available. Most 6.5" midbasses are 1/4 - 5/16" thick sitting still. you have no room for woofer movement. You ahve to sacrifice rigidty/strength to maintain roomf or the speaker to move. simple math. Midbass strength = cone movement & surface strength

2.) Wood is wood... treated wood willindeed solve the water problem. However, treated lumber is LESS rigid than its comparable kiln dried counter part. Its always " moist" its dense, byt softer = less rigid.

3.) Lexan: you hit the nail ont he head to get rigidity, you need 1/2" thickness... return to #1....

4.) I am an over-engineering, anal retentive audio-phile-freak... I admit it... no arguements. I fdo everything X10,000 which in my book is about right... Aluminum is superior in every way, performance, weight, strength, rigidity. Cost is about 50% more... time to create the panel is about the same as using a jig saw on wood... I offer them a basic or turn key as a customer would want... But bottom line... buy them form whoever you like... any other material your midbass investment will suffer. you cannot bend, stretch, change or ignore the laws of physics & acoustics.

Im just giving you guidelines... Your concern about the labor/install costs will dictate your final move...

Rob W

[HDBuckeye]

Thx for the lesson....

a 6 pack of new england's best brew suffice?


Wasn't aware that alpines had the upgrade option as well....

I still need to find a place that has the MBQ's. I'll listen to those and the alpine's and make my decision on whether or not to go with the add-on 3way component path.

With regards to the mounting bracket, if I go with the "add-ons" the mounting solution is temporary only so wood probably is the best alternative as I will more than likely only mounting 5.25" and 1" there anyway. When the 6.5" go in, then I'll go and fabricate the suggested Alum plates.

Of course, the end result is I have to like one of the brands that do the 2way to 3way add on sets. Otherwise, I'll just buy the JL XR653.

Appreciate the help again....

[2002GreyHD150]

you got it...

yes the 5.25/1" set will be fine in wood(paint it with several coats of cheap paint to seal it) or ABS then when the 6.5" come along... do the aluminum.

Rob W

[Therapist]

What about fiberglass? I have some adapters for my doors and was going to beef them up a little with fiberglass. Real easy to do.

[2002GreyHD150]

'glass would work to a point... you could use 1/4" hardboard & then 'glass & resin the heck out of them... that would work...

$30 in materials + time... Aluminum plates ready to cut your speaker holes are $40 a pair, on up, depending on what you want...

Aluminum will always be more rigid material thickness to material thickness than any wood or ABS option. the 'glass would just make the wood not have a water problem & add a little stiffness. You would have to add 4-7 layers of fiberglass matt to gain some real strength on hardboard... so you're back to the same problem... rigidity vs material thickness...

Don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to hock my aluminum plates. I am simply saying that aluminum is the BEST material choice. others can work but have serious short comings... that's all.

Rob W

[HDBuckeye]

CAn you use the "add-on" 6.5" sets with another 2-way set? Ie mix and match say a ZR 5.25" 2 way and then a alpine or mb quart "add on"?

[2002GreyHD150]

YEP no problem at all.. get the 2wat set you like the sound of...

Rob w

[HDBuckeye]

Went back to my search for shops carrying MBQs. Found them and demo'd against XR650s. I found a faint "white noise" coming from the JLs on one of the CDs I brought. Thought it was the deck, but the sound was produced at another shop. Neither the MBQs nor BA Pros reproduced the "noise".

Overall, the BAs this time were not as harsh and the midbass actually rattled the sound board in this shop. This kinda said that maybe tweeter just didn't have things installed quite right.

So I have eliminated the JLs.

Unfortunately, I did some ebaying and found the following:

BA 6.53:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Focal 165k3pLE:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Seller actually bought them on 1/9/06 for $420 (read sellers feedback, 1st item) Strange.


AHHH too many choices... I should just buy something and live with it!

[HDBuckeye]

ack just read your post about focal warranty.. scratch that.... but then again, things off ebay don't normally come with a guarantee....