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Thread: Panhard

  1. #1
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    Panhard

    Had a rain day today and some spare time. Low and behold a Panhard bar that one doesn't have to remove there bed to install. Teflon bushings, grade 8 bolt's and GG engineering.....Boredom in the right hands can be a good thing.



    Last edited by Dbl G; 12-05-2005 at 06:50 PM.
    IN MEMORY OF
    Blake (Fuzion) Finnel 12-3-1986 - 08-11-2007
    NHTOC #120

  2. #2
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    OOOH OOOH OOOH

    I want one!!

    Deje Vu?

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    Originally posted by bgstew6
    OOOH OOOH OOOH

    I want one!!

    Deje Vu?

    Ditto!


    You going to do a write up on this Dbl G with pics?

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    Yes I can, I guess I should.

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    Well here it is, I wanted a Panhard and as most I didn't want to pull my bed. Since I know several people that race and some engineer's. I put that and my own background to work and poof.

    A very nice and very functional Panhard. This is setup for a approximate 2.5" drop (2" to 3") Teflon Heim joint's, Grade 8 bolts for the frame bracket and for the Hiem brackets and Grade 8 replacement bolts for the differential cover also. First rate........












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    I love designing and building my own toy's,,,giddy up daddy giggy up go......

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    Do they make that panbar for a stock 03' Ride height?

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    I could. I don't know if anyone does at present thought.

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    Originally posted by Dbl G
    I could. I don't know if anyone does at present thought.

    Thats cool you built yours!


    I've looked around for one but really couldn't find anything I like. So what would it cost for you to build one of those for us?

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    Share the knowledge

    Panhard Bars: A brief tutorial.

    Height
    The height of the panhard bar helps to determine the height of the rear roll center(see illus. 1). The roll center is an imaginary point around which the rear of the race car rolls. The height of the rear roll center (and the front also) is critical to handling. When you lower the panhard bar the rear roll center drops. A lowered rear roll center promotes side bite at the rear which tends to tighten corner handling. However, an extremely low roll center can generate excessive chassis roll which can cause suspension geometry problems. Also, excessive roll can delay corner exit acceleration.


    Illus 1.





    The roll center moves downhill whenever the angle of the panhard bar is increased and uphill under opposite conditions.

    The roll center moves towards a stiffened and away from a softened side of the rear suspension.

    NOTE: When a short panhard bar is used and installed with allot of rake, the rear roll center may be located beyond the panhard's mounting points (as shown in illus.2).


    Raising the panhard bar raises the rear roll center. Generally, this adjustment causes corner entry handling to loosen and chassis roll to lessen. You can learn the "tuning range" for heights of your panhard bar by testing at the race track and taking good notes!

    When adjusting for height, change both ends of the panhard bar. Otherwise you may introduce another handling effect by changing the angle of the panhard bar (more later). Also, if you adjust the height of the panhard bar just at the chassis, the rear roll center may move in the opposite direction(see illus. 1&2). Generally, a 1" change to the height of a panhard bar makes a noticeable change in handling on dirt race cars (asphalt cars = 1/2").


    Illus 2.



    Example "a" is typical of many dirt cars using a panhard bar mounted to the axle near the pinion gear. if the rear roll center occurs outboard of the panhard's mounts (as shown above), raising the panhard at the chassis will lower the rear roll centers and tighten corner handling! the opposite adjustment gives opposite results.



    Angle
    During cornering the chassis exerts a side force on the rear axle and tires through the panhard bar (see illus. 3). When the panhard bar is level, it transmits a wholly lateral force to the rear tires. However, when the panhard bar is angled downward to the right, it transmits a partially downward force to the rear tires and rear traction is enhanced. Conversely, when the panhard bar is angled upward to the right, it transmits a partially upward force to the rear tires and rear traction is lessened. The effect of an angled panhard bar on rear tire loadings is brief but very important handling.

    Illus 3.




    During cornering, the chassis exerts a force to the axle through the panhard bar. The load effect on the axle is dependent on the angle of the panhard bar.

    position "a" - axle is loaded (briefly)
    position "b" - no affect on axle's load
    position "c" - axle is unloaded (briefly)
    NOTE: the effects of angle are the same for panhard bars mounted to left or right side of the chassis. each rear tire is affected in proportion to each tire's distance from the panhard's axle mount points.(see illus. 4)

    You can increase the panhard bar's effect on tire loadings by increasing the static upward or downward angle of the panhard bar. However, too much panhard bar angle can cause drastic changes in rear tire loadings during cornering and handling may become erratic as a result. Generally, a 1" change to the difference in mounting point heights of the panhard bar makes a noticeable handling change on dirt race cars (asphalt cars = 1/2"). A good rule of thumb is to keep the height difference of the panhard bar mounts to within 10% of the panhard bar's length (for example: 20" panhard bar = 2" maximum mounting height difference). When making changes to the angle of your panhard bar, be aware of any effects to the height of the rear roll center.

    In order to determine the ultimate handling effects of the panhard bar's angle, one must consider where the panhard bar is attached to the rear axle--Read on!


    Axle Mount Location
    The forces transmitted through by the panhard bar are applied to the rear axle at the panhard's axle mount point. The lateral location of the mount on the axle determines how much each associated rear tire is loaded or unloaded by the panhard bar during cornering (see illus. 4).

    Illus 4.




    A. PANHARD ANGLE AFFECTS LR MOST
    B. PANHARD ANGLE AFFECTS LR & RR EQUALLY
    C. PANHARD ANGLE AFFECTS RR MOST

    DURING CORNERING, THE ANGLE OF THE PANHARD BAR CAN AFFECT THE INITIAL LOADINGS OF THE REAR TIRES (SEE TEXT). THE DEGREE OF THE EFFECT ON EACH TIRE IS DEPENDENT ON THE LATERAL LOCATION OF THE PANHARD'S AXLE MOUNT (SEE ABOVE).


    If the panhard bar is attached to the rear axle near the center of the rear tire track*, the panhard bar will load or unload both rear tires by a similar amount during cornering. With this arrangement you can increase rear traction, hence tighten handling throughout the corner, by increasing the downward or decreasing the upward (to the right) angle of the panhard bar. You can loosen handling throughout the corner by making adjustments opposite to those listed above.

    If the panhard bar is not attached to the rear axle near the center of the rear track, the panhard bar will load or unload the rear tires unevenly during cornering. The closer a tire is to the panhard bar's axle mount the greater the tire is affected by the angle of the panhard bar. Conversely, a distant tire is affected less by the angle of the panhard bar.

    Generally, a 6" change in the lateral location of the panhard's axle mount point makes a noticeable handling change. You should keep the following in mind when adjusting the panhard's angle or its lateral location on the rear axle: *Any increase in the load of the RR tire and/or decrease in the load of the LR tire tends to tighten corner entry and loosen corner exit handling. *Any decrease in the load of the RR tire and/or increase in the load of the LR tire tends to loosen corner entry and tighten corner exit handling. *Increasing the load of the rear tires equally tends to tighten overall corner handling. *Decreasing the load of the rear tires equally tends to loosen overall corner handling. *Adjustments to the panhard bar primarily affect corner entry and mid-corner handling.

    By now you should have a good understanding of how some of the design elements and tuning adjustments of a panhard bar have a collective effect on handling. If anything you have read is unclear, go back and reread the article before progressing.


    Frame Mount Location
    A panhard bar that is attached to the right side of the frame lowers during chassis roll. However, a panhard bar that is attached to the left side of the frame raises during chassis roll. However, the effects on handling of a right side versus a left side frame mounting are not always predictable. The location of the panhard's axle mount can counteract any predictable handling effects. The current tendency is to mount the panhard to the left side of the dirt car chassis and to the right side of asphalt chassis.


    Length
    During chassis roll a short panhard bar changes its angle, hence handling, more radically than a long panhard bar. Consequently, handling can become inconsistent if the panhard bar is too short (20" minimum length is recommended). Generally the length of the panhard bar is determined by the desired location of the panhard's axle mount.


    Front/Rear Location
    For clearance reasons, the panhard bar is generally mounted behind the rear axle whenever a long panhard bar is desired. Also, a rear mounting provides more potential mounting positions than a front mounting. Keep in mind that since the roll axis (an imaginary line connecting the front and rear roll centers) is usually inclined to the rear, a rear mounted panhard bar must be positioned higher than a front mounted panhard bar in order to maintain a given roll center height.

    A front or rear location of the panhard bar makes little difference on cars equipped with solid rear suspension linkages. However, this is not the case for cars equipped with torque absorbing devices (5th coils, 6th coils, etc.) These devices allow the axle (pinion side) to wrap (rotate) downward during deceleration and upward during acceleration. During axle wrap, the height of the panhard's axle mount point changes. Consequently, both the angle and height of the panhard bar change during axle wrap and handling is affected.

    The location of the panhard's axle mount (ahead of or behind the axle), determines whether the mount will move up or down during deceleration or acceleration. During deceleration, the panhard's axle mount point drops if the mount is ahead of the axle but raises if the mount is behind the axle. During acceleration the height of the panhard's axle mount point changes opposite to those listed above.

    For tight corner entry handling, the panhard bar should be mounted to the front of the axle. This arrangement causes the panhard's axle mount point to drop during deceleration. Consequently, the height of the rear roll center drops & rear side bite is enhanced. Also, if the panhard is attached to the left side of the chassis the angle of the panhard bar changes during chassis roll so to increase rear traction and further tighten handling during deceleration.

    However, if the panhard bar is attached to the rear of the axle the panhard's axle mount point raises during deceleration. Consequently, the rear roll center raises and corner entry handling tends to loosen as a result. Also, if the panhard is attached to the rear of the axle and the left side of the frame, the angle of the panhard bar changes during chassis roll so to reduce rear tire loadings and further loosen handling during deceleration.

    The effects of axle wrap on the panhard bar appear to influence corner exit handling to a lesser degree than corner entry handling. At this point, you should be able to analyze any effects the panhard bar may have on corner exit handling.

    It should be mentioned that during cornering, a front mounted panhard bar resists axle wrap-up (acceleration) and enhances axle wrap-down (deceleration) whenever the panhard bar is angled downward to the right. A rear mounted panhard bar gives opposite effects. However, the effects to handling appear to be minimal.
    Last edited by Dbl G; 12-05-2005 at 10:05 PM.

  11. #11
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    great job if you decid to make and sell some i want to be in line tvs is going on after christmas and a set of 1000lb from ruslow shocks are on backorder tvs spec bilsteins.

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    A little egg breaking later today with design #2. Design #1 has been proven by some other's to work very well. But in the true spirit of the developing goodies, one must try to improve upon.

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    ilaybrk and Pro-Hawk,
    To answer your ? yes. If these work well,, I will more than likely become a vendor, I was hopping my other invention would have forced me into it, these will be a lot less costly of a mod for us all to swallow. I am going to come up with a better one yet with a adjustable track, one to attach to the frame without removing the bed.
    I already have it drawn up it is just a little weld time away. The one I deigned yesterday is for the 2.5 drop most of us are running, however there are also a lot of us running other set-up's and or doing suspension changes in stages.
    Stew will be tiring one of these on next week and a couple of NLOC boy's are going to slip into them also.
    Design #2 will be as neutral as possible.


    Tinker, Tinker
    Last edited by Dbl G; 12-06-2005 at 10:26 AM.

  14. #14
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    Name: stew

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    I like to TInkle, I mean Tinker!!

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    Top notch Mr. G, I look forward to installing one soon and abusing it thoroughly. I'm guessing your going to weld the adj bracket to a standoff so that it will be able to be longer than the frame rail is high? That would be cool. Thanks for the R&D.

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