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Thread: Long Crank

  1. #16
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    My experience with the 6.0 and the 6.4 has taught me that fuel quality is a major contributor of failures in either diesel. Every problem that the 6.0 has, can be traced to fuel. Injectors (fuel pressure, scuffing) egr valves (sooting) turbos (sooting up, vanes sticking), head gaskets (turbo vanes sticking leading to overboost). Why else would there be sections of the country with problems galore, and others with literally none (like mine)? A major pipeline gets a load of poor quality fuel, from there, trucks carry it out 2-300 miles in all directions. Keep using fuel additives and your problems will be greatly reduced. Periodicly, get your fuel lab tested for cetane level. The 6.0 needs 40, and the 6.4 needs 45 (factory fill is 50). Betcha that areas with lots of problems are around 35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnapon View Post
    My experience with the 6.0 and the 6.4 has taught me that fuel quality is a major contributor of failures in either diesel. Every problem that the 6.0 has, can be traced to fuel. Injectors (fuel pressure, scuffing) egr valves (sooting) turbos (sooting up, vanes sticking), head gaskets (turbo vanes sticking leading to overboost). Why else would there be sections of the country with problems galore, and others with literally none (like mine)? A major pipeline gets a load of poor quality fuel, from there, trucks carry it out 2-300 miles in all directions. Keep using fuel additives and your problems will be greatly reduced. Periodicly, get your fuel lab tested for cetane level. The 6.0 needs 40, and the 6.4 needs 45 (factory fill is 50). Betcha that areas with lots of problems are around 35.
    I agree fuel quality will reduce some problems such as injector issues but has nothing to do with failed FICM's, failed fan clutches or oil leaks. Blown headgaskets are caused either from overboost (power tunes, overloaded, failed fan clutch causing overheat) and rust buildup on the decks from lack of coolant changes. Fuel quality has never caused an overboost condition (turbo VGT stuck) that lead to a failed headgasket in any of the 6.0's Ive fixed in the last 7 years. If the VGT sticks it causes a lack of power down low or chokes it out by mid-rpm making the truck a total pile of cowdung to drive leading the owner to the nearest shop. A plugged EBP tube or an in-range sensor fault can cause abnormal boost but again, never seen a headgasket suffer from that either. What about high pressure oil system leaks? Blown o-rings that never see the fuel? Thats one of the biggest issues a 6.0 has.

    The 6.4 has EGR cooler issues too, oil leaks, EGR valves electrically failing, EGT 1-2 or 3 sensor faults causing no-starts. EGR temp sensor faults derating the fuel causing lack of power and of course the recall for the recalibration. Also the DPF's are failing, they crack and let soot through showing up as black smoke or soot on the inside of the tailpipe. If anyone has soot on the tips your DPF is done, they should look perfectly clean like an unused tailpipe. None of these issues are fuel related. You can run dyed fuel in a 6.4 without issue.
    Last edited by Newman; 08-16-2009 at 07:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    I agree fuel quality will reduce some problems such as injector issues but has nothing to do with failed FICM's, failed fan clutches or oil leaks. Blown headgaskets are caused either from overboost (power tunes, overloaded, failed fan clutch causing overheat) and rust buildup on the decks from lack of coolant changes. Fuel quality has never caused an overboost condition (turbo VGT stuck) that lead to a failed headgasket in any of the 6.0's Ive fixed in the last 7 years. If the VGT sticks it causes a lack of power down low or chokes it out by mid-rpm making the truck a total pile of cowdung to drive leading the owner to the nearest shop. A plugged EBP tube or an in-range sensor fault can cause abnormal boost but again, never seen a headgasket suffer from that either. What about high pressure oil system leaks? Blown o-rings that never see the fuel? Thats one of the biggest issues a 6.0 has.

    The 6.4 has EGR cooler issues too, oil leaks, EGR valves electrically failing, EGT 1-2 or 3 sensor faults causing no-starts. EGR temp sensor faults derating the fuel causing lack of power and of course the recall for the recalibration. Also the DPF's are failing, they crack and let soot through showing up as black smoke or soot on the inside of the tailpipe. If anyone has soot on the tips your DPF is done, they should look perfectly clean like an unused tailpipe. None of these issues are fuel related. You can run dyed fuel in a 6.4 without issue.
    Yep, you're right, fuel quality wont cause a ficm to go bad, (it wont cause flat tires either!) I've had several that the turbo was full boost from either sooting or rust. Remember, every region has a different failure rate of a component. To date, we've had 2 (yes two) egr coolers on 6.4s go bad here. Does that mean everywhere is the same........nope.If you read the workshop manual for sooty pipes on a 6.4, it shows clearly that dpf replacement is the LAST thing you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnapon View Post
    Yep, you're right, fuel quality wont cause a ficm to go bad, (it wont cause flat tires either!) I've had several that the turbo was full boost from either sooting or rust. Remember, every region has a different failure rate of a component. To date, we've had 2 (yes two) egr coolers on 6.4s go bad here. Does that mean everywhere is the same........nope.If you read the workshop manual for sooty pipes on a 6.4, it shows clearly that dpf replacement is the LAST thing you do.
    According to ford and the high failure rate of DPF's they say replace the DPF if there are no DTC's and you have soot! I dont make up the problems I just fix them, everyone knows fuel aint the biggest enemy of a 6.0/6.4. Workshop manuals are outdated hardcopies full of errors. On-line isnt even the best, working on the front line, years of ford training and years of experience over-rides any book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    According to ford and the high failure rate of DPF's they say replace the DPF if there are no DTC's and you have soot! I dont make up the problems I just fix them, everyone knows fuel aint the biggest enemy of a 6.0/6.4. Workshop manuals are outdated hardcopies full of errors. On-line isnt even the best, working on the front line, years of ford training and years of experience over-rides any book.
    No, everyone doesn't know fuel is the major enemy of the two diesels. How many times have you heard "I put some additive in the fuel and it improved " or don't you listen to the customers? The on line manuals are all I use any more. Are there errors....sure, but my 30 + years in the business has taught me to think on my own as well as follow a manual. Oh, here there has been 2 dpfs replaced, and many sooty pipes repaired without dpf replacement. High failure rate...... i don't think so! The workshop manual procedure for excessive soot in the pipes is much more involved than "if theres no codes, replace the dpf". I have no doubt that you've replaced many of them, but here, I've always tried to diagnose a problem before throwing parts at it.
    Last edited by blacksnapon; 08-20-2009 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnapon View Post
    No, everyone doesn't know fuel is the major enemy of the two diesels. How many times have you heard "I put some additive in the fuel and it improved " or don't you listen to the customers? The on line manuals are all I use any more. Are there errors....sure, but my 30 + years in the business has taught me to think on my own as well as follow a manual. Oh, here there has been 2 dpfs replaced, and many sooty pipes repaired without dpf replacement. High failure rate...... i don't think so! The workshop manual procedure for excessive soot in the pipes is much more involved than "if theres no codes, replace the dpf". I have no doubt that you've replaced many of them, but here, I've always tried to diagnose a problem before throwing parts at it.
    I didnt realize you were a Ford diesel tech. Here at ford we have to send every diesel warranty part back for inspection to see if it indeed did need replacing. If its found to be ok we get charged back. With the DPF being over $4K plus labour I wonder how many good ones I could possibly be changing and still keep my job?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    I didnt realize you were a Ford diesel tech. Here at ford we have to send every diesel warranty part back for inspection to see if it indeed did need replacing. If its found to be ok we get charged back. With the DPF being over $4K plus labour I wonder how many good ones I could possibly be changing and still keep my job?
    Yep, at this dealer for 14 years. Look at chart 15 in the diagnosis by symptom in the pced. Oh, they test around 2% of returns (by my sources) unless you have extremely high numbers then they test more frequently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnapon View Post
    Yep, at this dealer for 14 years. Look at chart 15 in the diagnosis by symptom in the pced. Oh, they test around 2% of returns (by my sources) unless you have extremely high numbers then they test more frequently.
    Numbers are good, dont need prior approval for anything other than the usual stuff like engines, heads, coolers and high pressure pumps. We have had a rash of EGT sensors, DPF's and melted pistons due to injectors on 6.4's. 6.0 same old same old, anything and everything but I still stand firm that fuel is not the cause of the bulk of 6.0 or 6.4 issues. The 6.4 injectors are a problem running lean, coolers and DPFs as well, not fuel related. Injectors MAYBE fuel on the 6.0 in some cases but the preheat calibration says otherwise. Been with ford for 15 years too 6 on the 6.0 and now 6.4 diesels. Bottom line is the manufacturer shouldnt produce an engine that is over-sensitive to variations in fuel quality. The 6.4 as you know is way too sensitive which can only lead to problems and ford points at everyone else for their problems.
    Last edited by Newman; 08-23-2009 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksnapon View Post
    Oh, they test around 2% of returns (by my sources) unless you have extremely high numbers then they test more frequently.

    Canada and US are different. Our dealer is below the radar as far as Audits go, our numbers are cool. If they test 2% of the returns thats one thing but 100% of the diesel parts are retuned. You're bound to get nailed if you send back good parts plus if our numbers were high we would be red-flagged which is not the case. Our FRTFT score is outstanding.

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